Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: I think another one is, like, who is delivering the message? There's far too often the people within your company that are communicating to your clients are salespeople. Right. Do you want to be told about an affiliate program from someone who their entire relationship with you has sold you the whole way? It makes it feel like they're just selling you on something else. So I think you really need to make sure that message of the affiliate program is coming from someone who. Whose entire relationship is not based off of selling something to your client. That's actually why customer success even exists, is because sales teams were incentivized for that. So I think making sure the messenger is the right person is a really key one. And that's where a lot of companies just do it wrong.
You weren't born to sit in traffic, work for approval, or wait for Fridays. You were built to be free.
Welcome to Rich and Remote, the show for the ones who dare to do life differently. Here we talk about building businesses that give you choices where you work, how you live, and what you create.
This is for the entrepreneurs who crave freedom, financial freedom, location freedom, and freedom from everyone else's expectations. If you're ready to design a life on your own terms, you're in the right place.
Rich and Remote, hosted by Alex and Carla Booth.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Rich and Remote. I'm here with my interviewee, my husband, Alex Booth. How are you today, baby?
[00:01:39] Speaker A: I'm good. A little bit under the weather, but grinding through. Happy it's Friday. Yeah, I'm doing well.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: Yeah. So for our listeners, quick update. We just got back to Playa del Carmen after spending a week in Mexico City where we both volunteered. Volunteered at Live Golf. So how was that experience for you, Alex? I'm curious.
[00:01:59] Speaker A: Overall, wow, that's a difficult question.
I really enjoyed watching the golfers. Got to see some of my heroes. I absolutely hated the volunteering part. I just had, like, the wrong role this time. Yeah, I. I think if I was, like, in my 20s or a teenager, I physically could have kept up with the demand. But, like, I was doing dead at the end of each day, so it wasn't very enjoyable for me. But what a cool experience seeing, like, Jon Raum, Cam Smith, you know, all these great players, even hearing, like, the drama, like Bryson DeChambeau complaining about the course and then dropping out, it was so cool. My friends were jealous, and I enjoyed it a lot. Besides, like, having the rental position.
[00:02:45] Speaker B: Yeah, that was crazy. I agree with you. Even for me, it was physically very Tiring, Very tasking. A little bit of fulfillment because of the same things that you shared about, like, seeing that level of excellence up close and our love for the sport. Definitely, that was a labor of love for sure. For a week.
[00:03:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And for context, I was, like, one of the people that would stay with one group, and my job was to tell broadcast who was hitting first and last off, like, essentially the order off of the tee box, off of the fairway, and then on the green so they knew if they wanted to switch to our group of players, you know, what was coming up. And, oh, my God, that meant I had to be ahead of the group the whole time. And so if, like, they just finish a hole, I need to literally be Mid Fairway, 400 yards down the hole where they're hitting for me to be able to tell whose ball is which. I am not in my 20s anymore. I am not as athletic. And I was hoofing it, Carla. I was hoofing it.
[00:03:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And it was pretty hot, too. The sun was out for, like, four straight days, so that definitely adds up. But I would say one of my biggest reflections since Alex shared about his role, my role was a much better role. I would say that. So I held the mic, like, literally, like, five feet, six feet away from the players. So I got to see all of the players play up close and personal. I was able to hear what they were talking about, what they were talking to their caddies about, how they're approaching each shot. So it was a great, kind, starstruck moment, but also a great way for me to be that close to that level of skill and excellence in golf. One of the things that Alex and I were definitely super duper, duper grateful about is our team taking care of everything for us.
[00:04:34] Speaker A: Karla and I thought it was going to be like, four days, two days, two work days, and then, you know, two weekend days. So only, like, two days missed from business. It was the full week. It literally took the full week with the travel, really work, and then you're tired at the end of the day, so you can't really work because you're just exhausted. Our teams killed it. They crushed it. Your CSM team was destroying it. My chief of staff was stepping up. Kudos to the whole team. It feels good.
[00:05:02] Speaker B: Yeah. So not only did our business continue to run, we got new leads, new clients onboarding, like our team completely onboarded without us. Alex and I have a client that we both share that is heading towards a big launch, so our team took care of that. So that was really awesome. So shout out to our team and shout out to my clients for also having the same experience. Because these are the. These are the moments where really, like, outsourcing and hiring great people is priceless when you get to do, like, these bucket list things in your life, like volunteering at a world famous golf tournament.
[00:05:40] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, it's a burnout prevention when you can actually do these things. Right. Like, I felt burnt out from volunteering in general, but when I came back to work, like, my mind is fresh, ready to go with work. So, like, yeah, it's crazy how needed these little mental breaks are. And as founders, like, sometimes we convince ourselves we don't have the time or ability to do it, and it really comes down to, like, trusting your team and then carving out the time to do it. But fortunately, we're both in a spot where like, that is readily available for us whenever.
[00:06:11] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that I also reflected on when we were away is the growth part of the business. And you and I have tried many things in our business, but one of the things that just kind of stayed constant and reliable was really getting referrals.
[00:06:30] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:06:31] Speaker B: I. I think that has been a very, very, I would say, very big blessing and a very big needle mover, I would say, for the growth of our business. The trajectory of our growth. Like, you went from next to your business from year one to year two, and me, I was able to, like, when I was starting my outsourcing company, go from zero to seven figures in a little over a year without ads, thanks to referrals. So I designed this podcast episode, really, to interview you, Alex, and use your expertise in customer success on how can we actually build customer focus or customer first affiliate programs? How can we get these referrals going and not just be forgotten by the customers who already love our service?
[00:07:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And to be clear, I think you're asking, how do we turn, like, our existing customers into affiliates or, you know, turning them into, like, referral machines? Is that right? Okay.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. And how to kind of avoid being too cringe, asking for too much. Like, I know there's a. Yeah, there's a limit, obviously, to, like, making the ask. So how do we. How do we do that delicate dance? So that's what I really want to get your thoughts on. So, yeah, so most people build affiliate programs by asking, how can I get more promoters? And you always say, start with your customer. So can you tell me what does that really look like in practice?
[00:07:58] Speaker A: Well, your customers are the people who actually know your value. Right. And what you can bring. I'm sure you have good marketing. I'm sure you have a good pitch.
At the end of the day, we're in a world where it is so easy to find dirt on any company. Right. And find a reason not to buy or buy with, you know, reviews, online, Reddit boards. So I feel like in today's age, like, referrals are extremely important for almost every aspect. And I think, like, when you're starting an affiliate program in general, your existing clients are always going to be the people you should start with. They're the ones that, again, know your business, and they're going to be the most convincing as to why someone should consider you. So in that regard, like, I remember I was building out an affiliate program for someone a few years ago, and just to get it off the ground, this is what I tell everyone, okay, we built the program itself. Now let's reach out to the existing customers, tell them about the program. Literally just tell them about the program. And that person didn't want to do it. Right. They actually refused to do it. To this day, I don't know why. Maybe they, their customers weren't having a good experience with them or they were worried to let them know that they even were making money off of them.
Not exactly sure, but literally like it. I think you have to start by, you know, building an affiliate program by just even letting your affiliate your customers know you have one. Put it on your website, reach out to them individually. But again, I think what you're mentioning is like, there is that risk of being too pushy, being too salesy, doing it at the wrong time. So there's definitely like a formula or art to it, and I'm happy to dive into kind of what those nuances are.
[00:09:44] Speaker B: Perfect. Yeah, I was going to ask about that because timing is very, very crucial. So at what point does a happy customer become someone who's actually willing to refer you. What's the moment? Or like a trigger that we should be paying attention to as business owners?
[00:10:02] Speaker A: Well, if you are looking at your business from a customer success point of view, I always like to say, figure out why your customers are even purchasing your service or product in the first place. Right. So when they decide to join your services, you should be asking whether it's sales or during the onboarding process, why are they doing it? And what that does is it gives you a goal of yours to help them achieve, whether it's them getting time back or maybe they want to make money. Whatever the purpose is, you write it down. And when you have your check ins with them, you should be able to ask about like how close they are to achieving that goal. Is your product or service helping them actually get there? So I think like measuring how close they are or if they've gotten there is usually a pretty good indicator. So if they have, they're seeing value. Absolutely. Reach out to em, let em know. But in the customer success world we also like to consider this thing called like time to first value. So how fast can I get someone value out of a service? They're far less likely to churn, they're far more likely to be satisfied. Even a good opportunity for ascension if you can get someone value right away.
So if you are measuring if they've gotten value and what their goals are and you're having those conversations with your clients when they've hit one of those, it's a, it's a no brainer to let them know that you have an affiliate program.
I think there's other options too, like your regular surveys which I don't recommend putting a ton of questions on or asking too frequently. My company does quarterly surveys. We only have two, two questions. One is CSAT. How satisfied are you on a scale of 1 to 10? The other one is NPS. So that's net promoter score and that's on a scale of 1 to 10. How likely are you to refer us to a friend or colleague if they score high on that second question? Of course that's an indicator. They just answered that question. I'm going to reach out and let them know about our affiliate program and what I can do for them.
[00:12:03] Speaker B: Yeah, that's really good insight. I like your time for value concept because time to value it is time to value because it's really the heart of like customer success. A lot of people are still learning what this phrase means, right? Like a lot of people still think it's customer support, customer satisfaction, but like customer success is really like helping your customers get to their goals through the solutions that you have. So I like that approach. And in terms of like vibes or mood, what are the other things that add to a positive to making this ask like really potent and like for you to have a high likelihood of getting referred.
[00:12:44] Speaker A: Well when you say vibe like I think that's a good point. You do not. Even if someone hit their goal, if there is a clear problem that co like just happens to be going on at the same time that they've received value from your company. Like maybe there is a billing issue or maybe there's a personnel issue. Right.
Obviously don't ask at those times. I think you gotta be aware, right. Like you're not gonna ask your parents permission to do that trip when they're in a fight. Right. So like there's some common sense. Yeah, exactly. Like there's some common sense.
But I, I think in terms of like vibe and like the right timing. Like you are setting the stage proactively when you're measuring that time to first value or you know, you're tracking their goals. The whole reason of like figuring out those goals ahead of time is so when you do ask and they confirm they're at those goals or you, you know, you have a reason to ask about them, you're already setting up a like a reason for you to, to bring up like these additional ask. It's all pre work for you to like be able to do that. Does that make sense?
[00:13:52] Speaker B: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think everyone should remember that the, the vibe is really important. I like your parallel about you're not going to ask your parents to go to a party or something. Like you not gonna have a favor for you from your wife or your spouse if they're in a bad mood. So I always think about that actually. Every time I ask Alex to buy me something I always wait, is it a good mood?
[00:14:15] Speaker A: But there are other things too. Like let's say like there's been like a leadership change. Right. At a company.
[00:14:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:22] Speaker A: You know, that might not be a good time. I, I think back to like this upsell training I gave and there's a bunch of indicators that I mentioned this upsell training of you know, signals for you to then make an upsell. And it's funny because it' kind of like an inverse right now. So like if they have had a leadership change, maybe like the vice president left and that was your, your main point of contact, maybe don't do it then. Right. You want to make sure that there is a relationship because at the end of the day like and I'm sure we'll talk about this.
[00:14:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:14:53] Speaker A: They're not referring you because of the money or these benefits. They're very nice to have. They're very nice to have and it shows that you appreciate them. But it's all relationship based. So like you that being a topic as well, people need to stop asking for referrals or you know, asking them to give reviews before they've even gotten value. Like I mentioned before, like I, the amount of times I've been onboarded as a client or I've purchased a product and I haven't even received any value yet. And I get asked to provide a review is absurd. Like, there's no reason for me to do that. I have no clue if you've actually given me something of value yet. So I think it all comes down to like, value and relationship and timing.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: Yeah. And I guess, you know, most of the things that we're discussing are like B2B services.
But I like the pre framing that you suggested about like thinking, how can I get you value? Like time to thinking ahead. But I noticed the same thing with like our Airbnb properties. You know, like, I'm not going to ask for a five star review on the first day, first night. I'm going to tell them, hey, we're doing everything we can to give you a five star experience. So I'm definitely like, putting it in their head. I literally say, five star experience, please let us know if there's anything we can do. And then it kind of like tees up the five star review.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: It's like tipping before you've even gotten your meal right. Or like before you've even finished your food.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: What if the waiter came to you mid meal and said, hey, are you gonna be tipping me today? Here's a card reader. Right. No, you need to let someone enjoy the meal, get through the experience. Right. And then you can ask. And I think that's only fair.
[00:16:32] Speaker B: Absolutely. And I like what you mentioned as well, about, like, we have to remember that these people giving us referrals because they're our clients, it's obviously not their priority. They are doing us a favor and we have to remember that. And most of all, they actually don't really need the money Unless this is what they do for a living. Unless they are like these few people that you and I know that are super connectors and they genuinely make money off of organizing these affiliate partnerships and things like that. But one of the things that I want to share as well on my end is that one of the things that really made a difference is us reminding our clients that our goal is to make them look like a rock star.
So is that a good approach? What do you think?
[00:17:18] Speaker A: Yeah, no, absolutely. You want to make them look good. You want them to know that's your objective and not because you think they want to look like a rock star. It's more that you want them to be aware that you won't make them look bad and you're aware that there's a potential for that, but you're not going to let that happen. It's more about like removing the fear of you making them look bad.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: Right. Because that's what they care about too.
[00:17:43] Speaker A: 100%. And I think a good point too, car. Like if you really have a good relationship with your client, and maybe if you're a founder listening to this, maybe it's your customer success manager that has earned trust with your clients and they have a good relationship. A lot of times when that's the case, you're a part of conversations of theirs internally where you find out that they have a partnership with a new company or they're trying to get something done, trying to impress a third party. When that's the case, like when you know that they have these outside objectives, you can offer up your ability to help them look good. Right. So I think when you have that relationship, you can easily identify, like when there's opportunities for you to help them achieve these outside goals that maybe aren't directly related to the service that you're providing them.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I like that concept too because I always tell my CSMs to also keep that in mind, like if there's a way we can do little favors for our clients here and there, I think it will just like fortify the ask. I mean, obviously I'm not going to say like, hey, I did this for you, can you send me a referral? Like, obviously I'm not going to do that. But like in managing your political, you know, capital, in that conversation, it's always better value first. So it all goes back to that concept.
[00:19:00] Speaker A: Yeah. I remember when I was a CSM at Amazon, I was working with a, my vendor I was assigned to was Newell Brands and they had categories in pretty much every product category. And if I saw some like, important news, for example, in the baby industry, if there was like a class action lawsuit because of some feature that, you know, had some, some incidents, maybe there's a death or something like that. Um, you know, I would share that, that information with them because to earn trust and a lot of times they would like include me in these like email threads that I had no business being a part of, but they valued my being a part, in my opinion. Or they would invite me to meetings that had nothing to do with the service I was providing. They just wanted. They valued me. Right. And when you sense that type of value outside of the just traditional relationship that your role is like, that's a huge indicator that you've already earned that trust. And you can let Them know, like, about the affiliate because they. You're providing extra value. They can provide extra value.
[00:20:00] Speaker B: I see. Yeah. I love those stories, and I love that approach. And I think the other side, you know, like, let's flip it to, like, mistakes. What are some of the biggest mistakes that you see people make when they try to, like, activate their customer base into affiliates? What are some of the things they trip over and. Or, like, consider as a challenge?
[00:20:22] Speaker A: Well, we mentioned one earlier, and that is, you know, bringing it up far too early before they've gotten value. I think we can go ahead and skip over that because I've really nailed that one. I think another one is, like, who is delivering the message? There's far too often the people within your company that are communicating to your clients are salespeople. Right. Do you want to be told about an affiliate program from someone who their entire relationship with you has sold you the whole way? Right. It makes it feel like they're just selling you on something else. So I think you really need to make sure that message of the affiliate program is coming from someone whose entire relationship is not based off of selling something to your client. That's actually why customer success even exists, is because sales teams were incentivized for that. So I think making sure the messenger is the right person is a really key one, and that's where a lot of companies just do it wrong. And I think a third thing.
These are your clients, okay? These aren't professional affiliates. These people don't have a ton of experience. So make it frictionless for them, right? If you can give them templates, if you can essentially make it as easy as possible where they just send an email or, like, they don't have to put any thought into it. Don't put them in a position where they have to, like, actually sell your company. Give them as much information as possible. Make it as seamless as possible for them.
And too often I'm seeing, you know, people asking their clients to become affiliates too early. It's the wrong person doing it. And then they're, you know, giving them a chore. They're giving them a responsibility, and they don't have the time for that.
[00:22:05] Speaker B: Yeah, I have a story to tell you about that for sure.
So I had an experience before where I had a person that I met in a social setting, and it's a female entrepreneur, and we really liked each other. So we became friends and then talked about our business. And then we were like, oh, yeah, let's refer business to each other. And then, okay, Great. I was really looking forward to it. I sent her my affiliate campaign or like affiliate program information.
I made it as seamless as possible. You know my slogan, send one email, make a thousand dollars.
That is basically, that is my favorite. I'm really proud of that slogan in my whole marketing career. But then, because I wanted to make it frictionless and I wanted to make it, it super easy and this lady who owns that other business that I wanted to refer business to, I'm not kidding, she sent me probably like a 40 point form. And then when she sent me how she's going to pay the affiliate payment, it was like, there's different percentages for the affiliate program.
First you're going to start with 5% and then if you're going to close more than 10k, then it's going to be 7%. And then if you're going to close More than 20k in 90 days, then we're going to add an another 7%. And it was just like so confusing and like, why are you making me do all this like math?
It's like 2pm on a Tuesday. I'm sweating my ass off in the sauna. Like, I swear to God, I pressed X, I closed my window and I'm like, I'm not referring anyone because it's already a bad experience.
[00:23:42] Speaker A: Also, it's a job. She's giving you a job.
[00:23:45] Speaker B: She gave me a job.
Exactly.
[00:23:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And that, that one happens like way more than you could ever imagine. Yeah, even big companies are doing that. And maybe not to the false scale of the affiliate programs, but like, even when they're asking for a review, for example, like I saw you on an airplane, you and I were flying and there was a survey and you got like 12 questions in and then gave up. You're really excited to give them a, you know, positive review. And then they just, they gave you the job of answering a hundred questions. Like, there's no way you're gonna do that. So I mean, that same, that same logic applies. Like, make it super simple for them to refer you. Don't complicate it. Literally as few words as possible, right?
[00:24:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Shout out to Air Canada.
So that was Air Canada. I don't mean to talk shit about them. They, we were very happy. Alex and I flew business. It was our first time flying that airline in business class. And so we were very happy. But then when they sent us the review page, it had like 40 questions and I just gave up. So Air Canada, if anyone's listening, if you need a smart brain to Assist you with customer success. You can find Alex on LinkedIn or check out Huckleberry's website at consult huckleberry. Com and you can pay us in flights.
[00:25:09] Speaker A: I would love that. We love your airline.
[00:25:11] Speaker B: We love your airline. Yeah, one of the nicest, like, attendants too, right? Remember they had such a warm grandma energy? Remember that?
[00:25:19] Speaker A: Yeah, no, absolutely. You know, usually I don't know if this is like, cancelable, but it's like always the Asian airlines that have like, the nicest staff. And like, I feel like whenever I don't fly like an Asian airline, I just, I try to compare it and it, it sucks. Air Canada is the one that like, is on par.
[00:25:36] Speaker B: Stood out.
Exactly. No, I hear you. I, I believe, I'm obviously biased, but I believe Asian airlines have an advantage in service. Yeah. So those are really good insights, Alex. And I know it's going to help a lot of our listeners to kind of think about, start thinking about how they can really design their affiliate program.
So let's talk about customer journey, since this is your expertise. Making customers happy, making more money from customers that are already happy, increasing ltv, increasing retention. How do you design a customer journey that actually naturally leads to referrals without it feeling forced or transactional? So this is like a systems, a systems approach into providing the service.
[00:26:23] Speaker A: Well, I feel like every single time a company builds a customer journey or process, it takes a lot of different offers to get to where they are. Right. So you have Frankensteined something over maybe months, most of the time, years, different tools, different employees, and a lot of times like, and that's necessary. That's how you get to what you have as a winning offer. Right. But over that time, the only person that truly knows what your customer experience is is your actual customer. Because you, as a founder or an employee that's worked there and seen all the iterations or even come into where it is, you've been trained to understand up, to understand exactly where everything is, what to expect throughout the customer journey. So you have zero clue, like, what your customers are actually experiencing. So what my recommendation is, is to experience your customer journey as a customer. I literally do these as it's the only service my consulting business does now is secret shopper audits. We go in and we're a secret shopper and we experience your, your customer journey as a customer. So I'd say that's step one is literally put yourself in the shoes of a.
Don't act like you know what's coming next. And if you, if you can't do it. Have someone else do it. You know, I would love you to hire me. Or just like ask a friend that maybe doesn't know anything about your business and have them go through. But when you're, after you're done doing that, what you're doing is removing these glaringly obvious friction points that you had no clue were there. And then the next step would be making sure that during the onboarding process there's two things that need to be done. One, you need to close the gap, the expectation gap. This is really, really key and no company is immune to this. There is a gap between what your customers expect you to be able to deliver and what you're actually able to deliver. Whether it's sales that incorrectly set those expectations, the marketing team or the clients themselves. There is never a situation where clients don't have have a gap in between expectations and what's deliverable. So you have to identify what those are during onboarding and you have to right size what's actual and what you're able to deliver. So that, that's probably the biggest one. Number two is when you've done that, you need to really understand what the customer has purchased your product or service for. What is the goal? Okay. And you need to have that in your back pocket for check ins. If you can focus super hard on that first 90 days when they're coming in, throughout that 90 days, you're one getting them that first value, getting them to first value, whatever that might mean. For example, like Carla, for your company, it might be getting an operations manager in and they actually are getting a project moving along.
[00:29:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:17] Speaker A: If it's a SaaS company, maybe it's, you know, them getting a lead from this real estate, you know, SaaS product where they're getting real estate leads. It doesn't matter what it is.
Um, but then if you focus on that 90 days, you get em the first win and then you have an opportunity to check in on that larger goal. Why did they sign up? And when you're doing that, you have conversations that earn trust. They're looking at you more as a partner and you start to see the relationship.
[00:29:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:42] Speaker A: Now at that 90 days is a perfect time to send a question which is the nps and then the csat. If they score high on that nps, that's an incredible indicator for you to introduce the affiliate program. If they didn't score high or maybe they did, but they haven't reached those goals or you feel the relationship is off. Ask that, do that same survey every quarter don't over ask. Don't make it monthly. No one wants to fill out a survey monthly. Do it quarterly. And if you do that quarterly, every single quarter, you're going to be able to identify new people to introduce your affiliate program to based off of the results from the NPS survey. Now, that is bringing in new affiliates from your customer base.
But a lot of times they maybe have signed up, maybe they've referred people, but they might need a reminder. You know, you're just not top of mind for them.
So I think it's really important for anyone who has signed up to give them updates about what's going on in the company. Maybe you have hired new people or someone's gotten a raise or your company hit a goal. You know, Brett, this is an opportunity for you to send them an email that's not related to the service you're providing. You're giving them an update about your company and you're maybe you're bragging about your company, maybe you're wishing them a merry Christmas, but you subtly, in those emails, remind them about your affiliate program. Ask them if they've identified anybody that would be a good fit for their services. So it's keeping you top of mind with those ongoing emails, I think is incredibly important and it serves a few purposes, right? You get to remind them about your affiliate program, but you also get to give them kind of upside or updates and insights into what's going on in your company.
[00:31:28] Speaker B: I really like that. I really, really like that. And actually, thanks for teeing up the next question. I was going to ask about sustainability as kind of like our closing topic in this conversation. But one of the things that I also want to add to what you shared in, like managing that customer journey, making sure you give value, all of those things. I think that also as early as the sales process, especially if you are a business that has grown organically like you and I, Alex, we've made multiple seven figures between our businesses from the specifically just referrals and inbound marketing. And I think that starting from the sales conversation, if you can put it in their heads that you have a generous affiliate program, just say that one line during the sales call. It helps kind of like plant the seed in their head and then don't ever think about it just so plant the seed in their head. And then once you close them, they become a customer. Focus on the customer experience, focus on giving them that value. I promise those referrals will naturally come.
[00:32:28] Speaker A: So super good point, Carla.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:31] Speaker A: And that is honestly something I Missed saying you absolutely have to plant that seed. And that doesn't mean you're being salesy. It doesn't mean that you're pushing their program on them. You're giving them information about your company. And one of those pieces of information is how generous your affiliate program is. Right?
[00:32:47] Speaker B: Yeah, but of course, like I said, it has to be just that very little line because what you're also avoiding is if that person was introduced to you by an affiliate, you also don't want that lead to overthink that. Oh my God. Maybe so and so just referred me so that they can get a commission so that you. There is a balance to like dropping that information but also making them focus on the outcome or on the sales call obviously or what they can gain by hiring your service, your company and buying the solution that you're selling them.
So yeah, let's talk about sustainability long term. What makes an affiliate program sustainable versus something that just works for a few months and then dies?
[00:33:29] Speaker A: Well, I think having a process in place, clear ownership. So I think having someone on your team that clearly owns the tracking of affiliates, the payments, all of resource updates, maybe sending those emails like I mentioned, like someone who clearly owns that is key. If it's no one's job and it's everyone's job, then it gets messy and then it gets dropped because it's not a priority. Right. So it needs to be a clear like role and responsibility, um, and then you know, having it scheduled out. So like having an sop, not just an idea or different folders or trackers, you know, have a clear SOP like I mentioned. Right. Onboarding. We plant the seed when someone's hit their time to first win, we check the box that they have when someone has hit their 90 day and they answered high on the NPS we send them. So like have it almost like a formula. Right. Okay. Someone's checked all those boxes. But the sentiment from the CSM is that the relationship is not right. Maybe there's a leadership change. Circle back in a, in a quarter and ask them about it. Right. Having a clear SOP is, is really key.
But I think the last thing is too often people are not consistent with paying out their affiliates. Like we mentioned that it is about the relationship. Yes. They aren't referring you typically for the actual pay or you giving them a discount on services. But if you fail to actually deliver on what you've promised, you destroy trust. Right. So you need to be very consistent and on time with actually paying out what you've promised. I have referred business to actually a friend's business. I had to let him know I did. And then I had to ask him about the affiliate program after as like a hint, hint. Hey, by the way, that person closed. Right. And then he sent me money. I referred someone else and I followed up. I never got paid. I'm not referring to them again. I just, I'm not because I don't want to have to beg for, you know, money. And it wasn't about referring, it wasn't about referring for the money. But I see that I wasn't valued because I didn't get the money. Right. Yeah, I think the consistency of paying out is really key. And the only way they do that honestly is like having a clear ownership and turning of who actually owns that process.
[00:35:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that the nuance there is that because you hire these roles for getcsm.com so if anyone's interested in talking about hiring an affiliate manager or a CSM, definitely talk to Alex, visit getcsm.com and book a call with him. I think the nuance between those two roles is that that this can be handled by a CSM if it's more low volume and high touch B2B. And of course if your company's big and you have a ton of affiliates, the principles are customer success focused. But maybe you really need like a, a real like affiliate manager, is that correct?
[00:36:19] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. When I say that have clear ownership, that doesn't mean that one person has to own it. You can say it's the customer success manager's job to do that for their clients. Right. Or usually it's the customer success manager stuff. They're the ones manag the relationship.
[00:36:35] Speaker B: The company is super big.
[00:36:36] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. They're the ones managing the relationship post sale though. Even, even at Amazon it was our job to do that. So it's usually the CSM job. But in the cases, there's plenty of cases where someone just wants someone to do that full time because they want them to own everything we talked about, but they also want them to be reaching out and finding new affiliates and bringing them in. And that's not turning your customers into affiliates. That's like finding actual affiliates in the wild, right?
[00:37:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:37:02] Speaker A: So they want them to own both. And if you have someone doing that, they can absolutely own the operational side of it as well.
[00:37:08] Speaker B: Yeah, it can increase the velocity of getting those affiliates in and then getting referrals in. And you know, some of our clients do full on newsletters. Right. Specifically for affiliates or Ad campaigns specifically to look for affiliates. Like I think if you're a girl and if you're on Instagram and you love fashion, I get this message, I would say at least once every quarter where I would get a message if I want to be an affiliate for or like a jewelry brand or you know, if I want my own Amazon link for something. So there is someone owning that process for these other like bigger companies because it's worth the effort for them to invest.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: I used to know these statistics on the top of my head. But like the percentage of likelihood of closing a sale from a referral is so much higher. It's something crazy. Like 75% versus like, like 2%. Right. It is, it, it, it's in, it's insanely high.
It's just, it's a no brainer and that's why people focus on these, that's why people grow that way. Yeah. And it's how we built. Both built our businesses.
[00:38:14] Speaker B: Yeah. So while you were saying that, I did a quick ChatGPT inquiry. Okay, no, I'm worried here it is. No, it's a track. So it says that there isn't a single universal percentage, but referrals consistently outperform every other acquisition channel by a while margin. So the typical close rates for cold outreach through ads, DMs or email is 1 to 5%. Obviously this is assuming that you have a working offer. Warm inbound leads through say content SEO, which is mostly where my leads are coming from. Approximity 5 to 20%. So we see the significant difference here and from referrals. You're going to Love this, Alex. 30 to 80% close rate.
[00:38:56] Speaker A: Oh my gosh. I was in the range for both the.
[00:38:58] Speaker B: Think about that.
[00:38:59] Speaker A: Or percentages. Yeah, perfect. Okay, so I wasn't full of business.
[00:39:02] Speaker B: Good at your job.
[00:39:03] Speaker A: Yay. There we go. It's like I do this for a living.
[00:39:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I definitely put you on the spot there. So ChatGPT was on your side.
[00:39:11] Speaker A: All right. I love it.
[00:39:13] Speaker B: So. Yeah.
[00:39:14] Speaker A: Well, one thing I want to mention to you Carla, is like I have really spent years figuring out ways to, to build out SOPs for like these topics that we talked about. Like for example, closing the expectation gap. I've figured out tools and trackers in order to track and implement that coincide with the sop. So I've built these things out and it's taken me years to do it and I, whenever people do the, the free audit that I provide, even when they, they do the paid audit, I still provide these. But the free audit. A lot of times I'll notice that someone will benefit if I just share this SOP with them. Right. If I just share these trackers. So if anyone's interested, do free audit that I have on Huckleberry Consulting site, it's consult Huckleberry. Com. Do that free audit. I'll identify exactly what your biggest need is. And a lot of times I'm just giving these things out for free. I don't post them because they're super valuable. I want to give them to people that, you know, I'm having a conversation with. But it's a really good way to get them in your hands and it's a great conversation.
[00:40:13] Speaker B: Yeah, we'll link the that specific offer in the show notes. So, guys, if you just check out our show notes, there's going to be a link for the mini audit. Definitely. Take advantage. Alex has a big goal of doing 100 mini audits this quarter. And of course, the big benefit for him is that it keeps him sharp in what he does. And it's also a good way to train his team to be consistently better at developing that intuition in auditing certain systems processes and making the right recommendations.
So one last thing that I want to share on our last topic of sustainability, because you shared more about strategy, which is like a mindset, you shared more about the mindset or a framework. I would like to share about something tactical. So something tactical that has worked for me is creative gifting. So how do you stay top of mind? How do you make your affiliate program sustainable? I have a list of affiliates. I don't have an affiliate manager specifically, but I do have a special projects manager, which is a specific person in my company that takes care of our special projects, like our affiliate program, our GEO strategy, or if I have a PR strategy that I want to run, I just make her do these special projects. And she's amazing. She's an amazing project manager, very smart, very sharp, and she does this thing. So every like month I just sit with her and we look at the list of affiliates and we do a little bit of creative gifting. And it doesn't mean that you have to buy them something crazy or amazing. It just means it's a meaningful point of contact.
So it could be you can reach out to them and say, hey, Mother's Day is coming up. I would like to gift you something by. I would like to pay for the flowers that you want to send your mom. Something like that. And it's like a. Whoa, that's crazy. There's like a customer delight. So I'm using the, the principle of customer delight and using that principle for affiliates. Sometimes I drop by the Google pages of my affiliates and I just write them a five star review just to be nice. Yeah. So I do that. Ashley did it last night for one of our friends and I didn't even mention it to him. Obviously he saw it and he sent me a message and he was like, hey, I really appreciate that. So, yeah, keeping like top of mind. There's a lot more, like creative things that you can do. Give them referrals too. That's, you know, give them referrals. Don't only go one way. They also appreciate that you thought of them. Those are some, like, small, tactical ways to make your affiliate program sustainable.
[00:42:42] Speaker A: There's one kind of along the same lines, and I've been trying to coin this term for some stupid reason, but it's like the, I call it like the dentist approach. When I was in Idaho, we would always get a physical card for every birthday, every holiday from our dentist. Right. And when we change a dentist office, we'd still get them from a new dentist. I don't know why they're so good at this, but like sending a physical card, wishing them a happy birthday, wishing them a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, whatever it may be. Right. Don't underestimate the power of a handwritten letter or card card. I think it's really easy to do. Shows a personal touch and you can put a QR code on there with your affiliate program link, or you can remind them of your affiliate program in that same card or message. But don't underestimate the dentist.
[00:43:34] Speaker B: I like that. Actually, for our marketing nerds, the open rate and the success rate of snail mail is still pretty high. People still check their mailboxes.
[00:43:43] Speaker A: Yeah. It's probably getting like more conversion now more than ever, I'd imagine because it's kind of rare, right?
[00:43:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Let me tell you, I check my mailbox more often than my LinkedIn inbox
[00:43:53] Speaker A: because it's probably therapeutic now. It's like, oh, it's not a screen. This is so nice.
[00:43:57] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah, you're right. It's like not a screen.
[00:44:02] Speaker A: Let me get my step. Let me get my steps into the mailbox.
[00:44:04] Speaker B: Let me get my 10 steps. Yeah, exactly. Let me get a little bit of sun.
Exactly. I like that. So, yeah, Alex, this was such a great conversation. I love that I was able to strong arm you into getting your advice and of course, letting the world listen in of course.
[00:44:22] Speaker A: And this stuff I absolutely geek out on, nerd out on. So reach out to me, do the free mini audit or just email me. I love this stuff. I can talk about it all day long.
[00:44:31] Speaker B: Or you can find Alex on LinkedIn. He's really active there. He posts advice, he posts his case studies, he talks about his clients and. And updates you with wherever golf course he's at around the world.
[00:44:43] Speaker A: That's true. That's true.
[00:44:45] Speaker B: All right, thanks to all of our listeners and see you again next week. Sign up for our newsletter richandremote.com so you can get first dibs on our episodes, on promos, on all the cool things that we're doing. If you want to grow your online business, we give free advice every week and we always want to make sure that everything we do is meaningful to you. That person who is growing their online business and that person who just wants to live a rich and remote life.
[00:45:14] Speaker A: Absolutely. I've, I've been getting messages, people that have signed up for the newsletter, like, this is crazy good. They've really enjoyed it. So I love, like pushing this right now because I know that people are getting a ton of value from it, but.
[00:45:28] Speaker B: And this is our baby for now.
[00:45:29] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thanks for making me do this. Well, not making me. I'm happy to do it. Really enjoyed this conversation.
[00:45:36] Speaker B: All right, so to everyone, see you next week. Richandremote.com that's our website. Sign up for our newsletter and see you around. Bye.
[00:45:44] Speaker A: Bye.
[00:45:45] Speaker B: Thanks for listening to Rich and Remote, where freedom isn't a dream, it's a decision.
This is Karla, this is Alex Booth, and this is our journey to our dream rich and remote life.
[00:45:58] Speaker A: If this episode inspired you, share with a friend who's ready to live life differently too. This is perfect for entrepreneurs who crave financial freedom, location freedom, and freedom from the opinions of others.
[00:46:10] Speaker B: And don't forget to leave a quick review. It helps more freedom seekers find this show. Big thanks to our sponsors, Huckleberry Consulting, getcsm and proximity Outsourcing.
[00:46:23] Speaker A: See you in the next episode and check out our online hangout spot, richandremote.com.
