Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: A good closer for a brand has to be able to kind of code switch or be able to adapt to that brand voice a lot of times too. So yeah, that's what I kind of mean. Making everything so easy that the dumbest person in the room could just sell it.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: That is a great easy takeaway right there.
[00:00:17] Speaker C: You weren't born to sit in traffic, work for approval or wait for Fridays. You were built to be free.
Welcome to Rich and Remote. The show for the ones who dare to do life differently. Here we talk about building businesses that give you choices where you work, how you live and what you create.
This is for the entrepreneurs who crave freedom, financial freedom, location freedom, and freedom from everyone else's expectations. If you're ready to design a life on your own terms, you're in the right place.
Rich and Remote hosted by Alex and Carla Booth.
[00:01:14] Speaker D: Good morning everyone and happy Monday. Welcome to another episode of Rich and Remote. We are very excited to today to have someone who is also a friend of ours. We actually met him at a retreat in Tulum a few months ago. First, welcome Alex and Kevin.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: Hey guys. Hey. Welcome back.
[00:01:32] Speaker D: Yeah. Our guest today is Kevin and he used to be a drug dealer, actually legal drug dealer, a pharmacist.
He got burnt out and he walked away and rebuilt his life around high ticket sales and YouTube. So this really got us curious. It's actually one of the first reasons why we all started chit chatting. These days he's building a chill seven figure YouTube business in public. He's sharing his behind the scenes and reviewing software from he claims his mom's basement.
He was also the head of sales for Ali Abdaal's channel with over 6 million subscribers and close up to 150k a month as a solo part time closer. So that's very, very interesting. Today he's a head of sales for creators and he helps them effortlessly sell and dumbass proof their high ticket offers without the Wolf of Wall street vibes. He also trains Jiu Jitsu almost every day and lives by his mantra, relationships are rocket ships. I really love this. His superpower is being a super connector and being a super friend. Welcome Kevin.
[00:02:38] Speaker A: Thank you Carla. Appreciate it. I'm actually really excited to be on this podcast, you know and I hope that some some of our energy off like a camera comes through this podcast too.
[00:02:48] Speaker B: Can I say something right off the bat? You're the second person I know who was a pharmacist and now is making a big career on YouTube. Shane Hummus is the other one. Over a million subscribers. It's. Is there something that is attracting pharmacists over to the YouTube realm? Like this is. It seems so unique to me.
[00:03:07] Speaker A: Dude, it's so crazy. Like, Shane actually used to watch my channel when I was a pharmacy channel back in the day too. So that was pretty crazy. But I don't know, man. I've been talking to a lot of different like pharmacists who have also made the jump and I feel like pharmacy just attracts like people that play not to lose. And yeah, I don't know, it's like very risk averse. But when you're not that personality, when you're just like, oh my God, what if there's more? What else could I do? Right? That's when pharmacy starts to being like, ugh. It's probably not for me.
[00:03:36] Speaker B: I'm gonna dive a little deeper into that on my own. But I think there's a link there that needs to be discussed at some point.
[00:03:43] Speaker D: Yeah, I think Alex Barker, right, Who's also an influencer, I think 40,000 followers on LinkedIn. He's a LinkedIn guy, was also a pharmacist. Right, you're right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Crazy.
[00:03:55] Speaker A: I interviewed him on my channel back in the day too, which was pretty crazy.
[00:03:59] Speaker D: Old school. Old school. Yeah. You know, when you do business online, it's really, you see the people who have been there for a long time and you kind of like, you know, kind of like pat each other on the back.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: Yeah, it's actually pretty cool, man. Like just seeing them in real life. Like I've known Alex for many, many years, but until I met you, that's the first time I met Alex and stuff too. And there's something so special about that first time meeting someone that you've known online for many, many years.
[00:04:24] Speaker D: Man, that's so true.
[00:04:26] Speaker B: You're making a career out of that now. That special feeling is kind of like your forte, right? That's what you chased is like that feeling over and over again.
[00:04:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:04:35] Speaker D: For me, like looking at your career and thinking about it, a pharmacist would be kind of a personality that I would never connect. A high ticket salesperson or a head of sales.
So that is wild to me. For example, like right now I'm hiring a salesperson I would not like pharmacist would not stand out in his. In the resume, in the stack of resumes. So what do you think that like dispensing prescriptions teach you about sales or is there a link there?
[00:05:05] Speaker A: Yeah, actually there's One story that comes to mind. So I used to be a pharmacist, a drug dealer in Hollywood. And if you've ever been to Hollywood, you know there's a lot of drug addicts everywhere, right? So everybody's trying to finesse you for, like, drugs and stuff, getting you to fill their, like, fake prescriptions and all that. And one of the things that you had to do was, like, read between the lines a lot of times and just be like, oh, is this guy lying to me or is he not? And if he is lying to me, how do I kind of get that answer out of him without me explicitly saying it? So if a drug addict came up to me, I wouldn't be like, hey, you're a fucking drug addict. I can't fill your prescription. I'll be like, huh, interesting. It seems like you got this prescription filled at multiple pharmacies. There's one just last week. What's going on? Right? And so it's like these small, soft skills. And then, like, you know, corporate, man, working in corporate, they made me do cold calling, but they didn't call it cold calling, but I was cold calling, like, trying to get for retention. Right. Hey, it's been a while since you filled this prescription. Are you still on it? Do you still want it? Like, dude, it was all these skills over time. And when you're dealing with the general public, you get really, really nuanced with this communication. Now, some pharmacists still suck at it, but that's what I kind of picked up over the years, too, of, like, you know, the implicit communication and stuff over the years.
[00:06:22] Speaker B: Most people, when they view a pharmacist, they think someone who stands behind the desk and then literally gives you advice from time to time, but literally just fills the prescription. But it sounds like there's, like, a lot more of an opportunity to, like, be a business owner or take on the responsibilities of a business owner, which I think something I would have never thought of.
[00:06:39] Speaker A: Oh, dude. It's like people don't even know what goes behind the scenes, man. Like, the phones are always ringing. Doctors want to talk to you, insurance companies want to talk to you, patients calling you. It's like so many different things, and it's kind of like being a owner operator, like, in a small operation. But if you up, like, someone dies, that's the only difference. And then you get sued, license. That's all.
[00:07:03] Speaker B: Mistakes are very real.
[00:07:04] Speaker D: Yeah.
[00:07:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:05] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:07:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:07] Speaker D: And I think what I picked up on that is that refilling as a prescription is that you're handing like a solution to a problem. Right. And you as a pharmacist, you have to identify is this the perfect solution for you at this time? Which is what a lot of salespeople should do in the first place. And the more they do that, the more money they make eventually.
So, money. Let's talk about money. You said this amazing story about closing $150,000 a month, working part time as head of sales for Ali Abdaal's channel. Really big channel, 6 million subscribers. What's something that will probably sound surprising to a lot of people and a lot of business owners right now about that experience? So give us the tea behind the scenes, as much as you can share. Of course.
[00:07:55] Speaker A: Yeah. So earlier you said, you know what the crazy thing was? Like, one, I was head of sales and we're getting ready to hire people. But at the time, during our last month, I was the only closer. I was only doing three to four hours of sales calls per day. Right. And also I had so much more room to dumbass proof his whole sales process on top of that too. And when I think about it, I was like, man, this wasn't even remotely what I wanted. Or I don't think it was remotely as successful as it could have been. But it goes to show you, like, you don't need a sales team of like 50 plus people. I've seen those like floors before and those sales teams are really inefficient for most people. I think you can get away with like probably 1 to 2 to 3, like salespeople Max. And that will bring you really, really, really far. So for me, I'm all about like dumbassing proof the process before we hire way more people on and stuff. That was a crazy experience. I really enjoyed my time with Ali
[00:08:54] Speaker B: and all that just for my audience too. Like, can you give us like a little understanding of what you mean by dumbass proof?
[00:09:00] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:09:01] Speaker A: So my whole goal is to make it so easy sales so easy where you can take the most like dumbest person in the world in front of a lead and they could close the deal because all the pre selling is done. So your positioning is on point, your offers on point, your content assets of like pain, process, promise and proof are there. Your sales process is like really depending on the brand. Like Ali, he was very. He kind of like really didn't like aggressive, like sales pressure and stuff like that. So I molded his sales script to the brand and in that brand voice, I think that's a thing that a lot of people get wrong with creators too. It's that a good closer for a brand has to be able to kind of code switch or be able to adapt to that brand voice a lot of times too. So yeah, that's what I kind of mean. Making everything so easy that the dumbest person in the room could just sell it.
[00:09:58] Speaker B: That is a great easy takeaway right there. I actually think you and I had a call a few weeks ago where you were trying to proof my sales process. So I now see what you were doing.
[00:10:08] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. I think the handing off sales also as a founder, it's less about dumbass proofing the offer or the sales process. And sometimes it's also more about the ego of the founder of thinking that no one else can do it but themselves. And then they fail to see that their time could be better off spent in other things like high ticket connection or innovation innovating their offers. For me, my ceiling was about, yeah, same 150, 180k a month when I was doing sales, I mean for my own business.
So I'm also not sure if I pass that off to a salesperson that they would have the same numbers immediately. But I kind of see that there's still a lot of window to move. I also was doing it part time, right. Because I'm CEOing the company. I'm doing other operations stuff, but the number checks out. It was also reflective of my personal experience continuing this conversation about money. A lot of business owners who have some sort of a following, some sort of like social media channels or maybe a YouTube channel or whatever, their income doesn't match their following.
And they are a CEO, but they're also kind of like a broke influencer. So what do you think is typically the problem? Is it a revenue problem? A margin problem, an identity problem problem? What are you seeing from your experience?
[00:11:29] Speaker B: Spending problem?
[00:11:32] Speaker D: An addiction problem?
[00:11:34] Speaker A: An addiction. The cocaine problem.
You know, it's really interesting. I was actually talking to my friend. His main YouTube channel has 2.5 million subscribers right now and pretty sizable channel. Been on the YouTube game for such a long time. But he's an entertainment channel and because he's an entertainment channel, it's really hard to pinpoint like a key burning problem. So his solutions are all mass market, right? Solutions. They're low ticket, mass market. But then I was talking with another friend and we were looking at Talking more's like YouTube channel and talking more is like pretty big in this like world. And he only has 20k like subscribers. I don't know how much revenue he's doing. But every big entrepreneur I know like talks about talking more and all that and has tried his programs. I think a lot of times it's like maybe not a clear offer actually for the audience. And I know I struggle with this, like on my main channel, I struggle with this like really, really hard. I didn't know what to offer, but as soon as I started doing like the high ticket sales channel, it was just so much like simpler and stuff like that because I could pinpoint a problem. So I really do think it. It really comes down to like ICP and picking a maybe. Like there's two ways I think about icp, right? Ideal client profile, but ideal client problem too. Right. And I think that's the major key, you know?
[00:12:54] Speaker D: Right, exactly. And I'm a big follower or consumer of these YouTube channels that just are very gossipy. Like sometimes I. You know, those YouTube channels were like, girls are just reading Reddit relationship posts and they just like flesh it out on screen. Like, my husband has a secret family. I actually love those videos. Yeah, yeah. When I'm cooking or I'm like cleaning the kitchen, I just listen to this drama. It's like my personal soap opera. But I can see that they have so many views, so many subscribers. My gosh, like 500k, like 200k. But they have no offer. Their only money is really coming from just like YouTube revenue. Some of them don't even have sponsors. Like, there's no ad in between. So I'm like, wow, that's really. That's difficult.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: You know what's interesting is I'll see channels with only a few thousand followers. Maybe like 5,000 followers. They're maybe getting a thousand views. But I'll meet this person at like a conference or something. And they're killing it on YouTube. They are just, they're making a ton of money. Because I think it's exactly what Kevin said. Like they're solving a problem there. They built a channel super intentionally to solve a particular problem. And it's just so interesting hearing that there's the adverse. There's someone with millions of followers and their problem is not making money. You know, it's. It's interesting.
[00:14:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I think too, like after running a YouTube mastermind. Cause I got to see the behind the scenes of everybody's. Like, I had a general gist about how much everyone made the most success. The general channels that did the best, they were still making pretty decent money, but they were all reliant on brand deals. But they were Also stressed out as fuck the whole entire time too, because there's always deadlines and stuff as well.
[00:14:36] Speaker D: So yeah, I talked to one of your friends that you introduced to me, Kevin, and this guy has a lot of like sponsorship, kind of affiliate deals and he has to release one video a day. He literally has to release video a day. So he has four editors. And then he needs someone to talk to his sponsors also and give them updates. And then he also needs someone to check the quality of the videos, if the logos are placed properly. And so he was going crazy just like making this all happen. And that's why he talked to us and we're finally getting him the help that he deserves. So there's also, there's the running the business behind the YouTube channel. Right. That is also a huge factor. What do you think is a common breaking point for.
How do you say that? Oh my gosh. My YouTube channel, or whatever your social media platform is, is finally getting momentum. This is happening and I need to go all in on it. What are usually the signs?
[00:15:33] Speaker A: Oh, there's just one clear sign. I've talked to so many YouTube people about it and I don't think I'll tell you what's not. It's not the subscribers or anything like that. It's your first breakout video. It's your first outlier video. And like when my Ali Abdal video, which I eventually ended up deciding to take down, when that video was up, dude, we were getting crazy amount of views. Like the top channels were all commenting on it and all that too. And that's when I knew I had to go all in on this. Now I haven't figured out a format that replicates that crazy virality, but there was something there. And that's how I knew, like, dude, this high ticket sales channel has lakes because that many people would not comment if it wasn't that, if it wasn't valuable. So I think that's the first indicator.
[00:16:20] Speaker D: I like that I just got my first possible breakout video on reels.
Oh yeah. I've been doing daily trial reels on Instagram and one video popped off 9,000 views on the first 24 hours.
And the advice was so stupid. Like it was so simple. I'll tell you. It's literally, Literally I actually shouted you out in that video. I just remember now. Yeah, I did. I shot you out. I said, my Kevin, my friend Kevin Yi. But I was just saying how it's such a good business plan to move to Asia with in a place that is more relaxing to Your nervous system and low cost of living and do your online business there and just stack a lot of cash.
[00:17:04] Speaker A: That's it.
[00:17:04] Speaker D: Which is like what Tim Ferriss said
[00:17:06] Speaker A: in 2015, Dude, I'm glad that you had your first outlier video for shorts. Actually, if you're considering like 9,000, like today my social media manager just posted a short of me crying and stuff. I was like, what the fuck? It got like 8,000 or 9,000. Everybody's texting me behind the scenes like, hey, are you okay, Kevin? I'm like, kind of. I just had my hypoglycemia breakout. But why, what's up? And I check my Instagram, I'm like, what the fuck?
[00:17:35] Speaker B: Oh no.
[00:17:35] Speaker A: Oh no, it's not.
It's funny as fuck. I'll probably post something later about, hey guys, I'm okay. Like everything's chill. But fuck, dude, like I got so many comments from my personal friends who are just like, hey, Kevin, are you okay? Like, is there anything I can do for you, man?
[00:17:53] Speaker D: So that's crazy. I want to give this question to Alex as well. Like for maybe your clients who have businesses that are also that are using their creator channel to funnel leads into their business, where does it usually break in the customer success part? Where does it usually break in the serving their customers part of the business?
[00:18:17] Speaker B: Well, there's usually like, that's a front end. And if there's so much focus on the front end but very little focus on the back end of delivery, that's where expectations can be unmet. Right. I feel like in the customer success world that's largely the problem. Whether it's a sales team or people are coming in from a, you know, a YouTube subscription, you know, they're a funnel from YouTube. There are expectations being set and they just need to get actualized. You need to figure out what the gap is versus what can be, what can actually be provided and then right size that with the the customer as fast as possible. And if that doesn't happen, then dissatisfaction happens, unmet expectations happen and churn happens. So it's usually just around expectations.
[00:19:06] Speaker D: Yeah, that makes sense because sometimes the creator is also some sort of selling right in their channel and maybe they give like crazy promises that customer success can't back up. Have you had that experience, Kevin?
[00:19:20] Speaker A: Dude, salespeople are like the worst sometimes. Like some of the worst offers I've been on, they're like, just make up offer. I was like, wait, you know how ridiculous that sounds? Like for your customer success? I mean, it doesn't matter to me because, like, I'll get the commission. So what? But that's how like, businesses start breaking. And so I think what is really missing a lot of times is like ahead of sales or sales leadership to be that feedback loop for marketing and head of product or customer success as well. So there's a feedback loop going on.
Like, hey, for customer success, what are people finding really, really valuable that they didn't expect coming onto the offer? Right. Things like that. Or like, are they outrageous claims that are on our sales page that we should probably get taken off? Right. Like, things like that. But yeah, I think when everybody goes siloed into their own world, that's when things start falling apart.
[00:20:12] Speaker B: You're going to like this. I always instruct CSM teams to, if they're going to go to the sales team to right size, one of those expectations, kind of figure out where they went wrong. Why are they promising things? I ask them to always bring something in return. Right. So if they're going to take something away, give them something, whether it's a case study or like something that's working internally so they can use it as ammunition. Do it like a quick trade instead of just trying to take something away from the sales team.
That way it kind of builds a relationship with them. But that's how I always coach them to go about it.
[00:20:45] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:20:46] Speaker A: And I think it also has to do with like company culture that is set to. You know what I mean? So that starts at the founder. And of course, like for sales teams and stuff, I always like, I always encourage like thinking to be like, hey, how do we make this easier for everyone? Right. Like, what sort of assets do we need to make sure that we don't have any chargebacks or refunds? Because if those happen, you're not going to get paid out for that regardless. So. Yeah.
[00:21:09] Speaker D: Yeah. And you as a head of sales and a consultant for these creators. Creator channels, is it a normal practice to claw back the commissions for refunds?
[00:21:18] Speaker A: I would say so. Honestly, like, I would say so. Personally, I don't know. Some people have their differences or their thought differences, but I don't think it's right to. I don't think it's right to take a commission that was refunded and all that to. That's not the salesperson's fault. Now it's a different story if the offer just shuts down and stuff. Like, I think that's like very, very different story. But in terms of a refund or chargeback because of what a salesperson promised or something like that. That's a major thing.
[00:21:46] Speaker D: Interesting. Yeah. Because some of my clients have just told me stories that every refund is kind of a case to case basis and they really have to look for the recording of the salesperson. Again, if they promised something there that, you know, if there is something that they communicated that gave the wrong impression or the wrong expectation.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: Yeah, it's the CSM team to do a little deep diving to figure out what is the root cause of a churn and then categorizing it. So as soon as you can do that. But that's where I think Kevin's second did on like, as a CSM team, you need to have like a direct line of communication to the sales team. And to be completely honest, in most cases they are completely siloed and they're not having that conversation.
[00:22:29] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:22:30] Speaker A: And that's why I'm so big on content assets too, because it reduces the amount of dumbass things that the sales team can say like just to win the deal. Right. Because it's all standardized and all that too. And so it just reduces that chance over time.
[00:22:46] Speaker D: Yeah, that's right. Okay, let's move on to like CEOs and business owners and maybe their struggles of our challenges in creating content. Because right now what I'm seeing is that for CEOs who make content and want to do content marketing, especially founder led sales type of content, they are not just competing with other people in their industry, they're also competing with other influencers for the attention of their ICPs. Right. Like for me, if I was your ICP, you're not competing with other head of sales, you're competing with these YouTube channels with Reddit gossip. Right. For my attention.
So a business owner with real product and a real revenue finally starts a YouTube channel. What do they get wrong that a broke 22 year old with a ring light gets right?
[00:23:37] Speaker A: Oh man, you know what, it's something I've personally struggled with for a long time, but something that has helped me is, well one, there's this Rockefeller quote that's always in my mind. Competition is a sin. So like I try to never compete like you said, but then the question is like, what do you do? And I think something really major happened to me like when, when I had that breakout video with Ali Abdul and I started looking at like, yeah, sure, we could all talk about sales, but what lens are you kind of looking through? Like, you know how camera cameras, you can switch the len and I'll totally change an Image, right? And so I was like, oh yeah, I'm also a creator too. I've worked with the top creators. Those are my main icps. So maybe I'll do it through the head of sales, through the lens of creators and stuff. And I'm specifically targeting them. And I think that's a really, like, when I think about one of one content, it's like, what is content that only, like, I could probably do? And what kind of perspective, unique perspective can I give on this as well? So I don't know, I think a lot of kids these days, like, they're really, really, really good at scoping out really great content, putting their own spin on it. But the disadvantage of a 22 year old, I would say, especially these days, is like lived experience sometimes, right? Like, I sometimes forget that, dude, I used to be a drug dealer. I have all these stories of like these different parts of my life where I have a lot of lived experience and I take that for granted. But then I always forget, like, oh yeah, these younger kids, they just don't have that sometimes, you know, it's not a bad thing. But that's our, I think as a millennial and stuff, that's my unfair advantage sometimes.
[00:25:17] Speaker D: That's true. I agree with that. I feel the same way. I've been in business for 17 years and I was in a recent kind of like hot seat roundtable and someone came up to me at the end of the hot seat because I was giving advice at the hot seat. And then she said, your insights were so sharp, they were just the sharpest in the room. And I was like, oh, thank you. You know, I was so flattered. And then I realized later on that in the room, I think I was the person who was in business the longest too. Even though I wasn't the youngest person in the room or probably not even the biggest business in the room. But I agree with you.
[00:25:55] Speaker B: I have a question because it seems like content is just what every business seems to think they need to do, right? In most cases, I think that's correct. Is there any online business that shouldn't be doing content? Because I feel like that should be literally called out and spotlighted so people don't waste time. We'd be curious to know like, what your thoughts are, if there is what they should be doing instead.
[00:26:19] Speaker A: Well, if I had to build a business without any content marketing that has that same amount of trust, honestly, it's like there's something so special about referral based, like referrals, you know, it's not the most scalable thing in the world, but if you have a good enough offer, like you can get to a pretty good place with a referral only and stuff as well. It's just very sporadic so you can't like really predict like when it's coming in. But I can't really think of like a particular business that shouldn't be doing content even like maybe if it's like yeah, dude, they should not be making content whatsoever.
[00:26:58] Speaker B: They're boring as farms dealers, arms dealers.
[00:27:01] Speaker D: Get ready with Machine gun.
[00:27:04] Speaker B: Actually I've seen their content. They target me and it works really well. I'm getting ready to move back to Idaho. I'm definitely looking at a bunch of guns right now.
[00:27:15] Speaker A: Maybe if you're doing illegal activities for sure. Like I see these kids, they're like doing illegal and posting online. I'm like, oh my God, what the are you doing, dude?
[00:27:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:27] Speaker D: And they're like, oh, it's okay, it's on Snapchat. Like no people could. Have you heard of a screenshot? Like are you okay?
[00:27:34] Speaker A: Have you heard of a subpoena?
[00:27:37] Speaker D: The.
Have you watched any documentary at all about crime? I like that especially now I think that there is a resurgence of founder led content again and people loving personal brand personal stories again because of the AI slob. Now people want to hear from humans again. And I think it's. If you don't have content right now, it's going to be very hard to compete to be honest and or you're going to be commoditized af.
[00:28:07] Speaker A: Yeah. You know what's really interesting though? If you know how to do content, I think it's a really good time because alos are really pushing out new channels. Like that high ticket sales channel is like less than a year old and I have my breakout video there. But I see so many creators just have their breakout video like within their first like 10 videos. And so I think it's a really opportune time to do personal branding content or like sharing personal stories.
[00:28:33] Speaker D: And once someone gets that storytelling part right there, maybe their content pillars, right? A lot of people teach that now they got to think about sales. And I know that not a lot of people can immediately go to hire ahead of sales. You know, someone like you. How can a CEO or a business owner founder, how can they start at like looking at this process? What. What is the best advice that you can give them?
[00:29:00] Speaker A: Just so that I understand the question. They're not ready for a head of sales, but they want to start thinking about Sales, Is that right?
[00:29:07] Speaker D: Yes, yes.
[00:29:07] Speaker A: Oh, okay. Do they have an offer or no?
[00:29:10] Speaker D: They have an offer already. It's working. They know how to deliver it. They have happy customers.
[00:29:15] Speaker A: I see. Yeah, I think. Well, okay, funny story. My first offer, it was probably in 2017 or 16 and it was an investing course called Kick Ass Investing. Right. Basically I had a email list going on and I thought these people would definitely buy, right? But it took me so damn long to actually execute on this offer. It took me like probably two or three years. And when I launched it, Crickets, no one bought. Maybe I sent one follow up email or something, maybe one person bought. I barely made any money. It was not worth it. And during this whole time I was actually building the programs and all that during that time. And the reason why I tell this story is like if you are thinking about sales and stuff like that and you're not getting a lot of demand quite yet. Like I'm really, really big into wait lists before you build anything out, right? Like send out an email, send out a post, hey dude, I'm working on this. Just curious. Anybody here interested in this?
Have them raise their hand and that way you can get a pilot group going and all that. And then start building out the assets because you actually need to, not because it's a nice to have. I think that's really an important thing to build out like wait lists and I think that's a good place to start. And over time what will happen is like okay, you start doing your presentations, people are going to ask for testimonials and then you build out those content assets over time as well. So that's my, probably my best advice and stuff too. That's a lot on the pre selling side. Selling side. I would say honestly like a high ticket closing like script that is very casual like conversational and all that. I have a full like 3 hour course on that and I leak out my script that I made for Ali Abdaal as well so they can check out that. But my main thing is like you know, you don't need to do these hardcore like closing techniques or anything like that that people don't really resonate with and, and especially in these days, right. Like a lot more people are inundated with sales, right. So they hate that like traditional sales stuff for the most part.
[00:31:17] Speaker D: I like that. I will definitely make sure to share a link to that three hour course. Even I am, I'm really, really curious. And you're right, the best sales script is definitely conversational. It's Just listening properly to what the lead is talking about. How about CEOs who obviously are starting to finally sell. They want to get better, and then now they want to hand off sales. So I guess they're on like the round two. Now they know how to sell. They're really good salespeople. They have good conversions. What are the things to think about? This is something that Alex and I are thinking about right now currently as well. So we're scamming you for free advice.
[00:31:56] Speaker A: Well, let me piggyback off one thing that you said. Yes, it's listening to people too, but I also think, like, too, it's being able to lower the intensity, being able to laugh, being. To be like, take it not so seriously sometimes, right? Not to a point where you're just like, not fucking, you know, I mean, but like, not being so serious sometimes. I think people come in way too intense with sales calls. Okay, so level two, your question here? It depends. I find that a lot of creators, they're actually quite scared to hand off sales. And I think the reason why I think this is because sales is a major thing. There's a perception about salespeople that they really don't like where they'll just say anything to win the deal. All these different things. Right. And so if that's the case, what I would recommend is probably hiring a setter, inbound setter first. This is someone who will, like, qualify your leads for you and all that. And then over time, you can bump them up to a closer account executive or whatever as well. You can just move them up over time and you slowly phase yourself out of sales completely. So that's what I would probably recommend someone who is kind of skittish about that. So, yeah.
[00:33:05] Speaker D: Yeah, I like that plan a lot. What do you think, Alex, is a good way for you to customer success to also support that process, hiring the first salesperson?
[00:33:14] Speaker B: I feel like there's a lot of companies that will. Most companies will hire sales and then they hire customer success because they start to see the leakage on the back end. Whereas, like, I honestly feel like it, and maybe I'm biased, but I actually feel like it's best to have the CSM in first and then higher sales. And the reason why is Kevin answering this, like, do you feel like majority of the time you're coming in to build out a sales team to replace the founder from selling? Right. The founder is selling. So in order for the founder to be selling at full capacity and doing that, they have to also let go of the Relationships of their clients. Right. And managing the relationships, managing delivery. So I feel like the natural progression would be to hire a CSM so the founder can go and figure out what am I selling. Right. And how do I best sell it and then start to replace them. Like Kevin mentioned, like bringing in a setter and then the A. I think that part makes sense to me. Whereas most people are going about it backwards. They're building out the sales and then they're coming back.
[00:34:17] Speaker A: Yeah. I also think too it depends on the founder, where they want to be in the business. Cause like honestly, if a founder that really loves being in sales, like fine, don't replace yourself out of sales, then definitely hire a CSM for sure, you know, So I think that's A lot
[00:34:30] Speaker B: of founders want to do operations too, right?
[00:34:32] Speaker A: Yeah, like dude, I know tons of people that just want to do operations. But I think for creators especially, like I always say this all the time, like you probably started something like YouTube, not because you want to be on sales calls, not because you want to coach people, it's because you wanted to make videos. And so that's what you probably do
[00:34:50] Speaker D: best, you know, being an outsourcing. I always say that the founder or a business owner or a visionary, the entrepreneur, they have a job in the business that they like doing.
And when they know what that is. Absolutely. Because it's going to be so obvious. It's the thing that they do the most, they spend a lot of time in. And yeah, they somehow fail in other parts of their business and that's why they outsource and they should just keep doing that, that one thing. And so let's talk about the next level, level three, because I want people to really know what does it take for someone, even if you're not a creator business, but some for someone to hire head of sales or a fractional head of sales, someone like you, what are the numbers that they should be looking out for? What would that cost to hire someone like you?
[00:35:36] Speaker A: Yeah, so I think like a full time head of sales. I've seen numbers anywhere from like, like 2:50 to 500k to even higher for a head of sale. So it's not like a cheap expense. Like it's not a cheap investment for sure. So that's why I started offering like fractional services and stuff there. But I would start considering like ahead of sales when you have your first one or two like closers or like at least a basic sales team. And then you should probably be doing anywhere from like 50 to 100k per month. That's like the mark that you want to hit for head of sales and stuff and should start considering it just to be clear, like, what had a sale. Because not everybody knows what a head of sales is. Head of sales is just pretty much they run all the strategy for the sales department. So the sales manager just makes sure that, hey, is everything being done? Is it being done right? And then the head of sales is really focused on strategy.
[00:36:32] Speaker B: You said like a hundred K usually coming in a month. Month is generally like that point. Okay.
[00:36:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:38] Speaker B: Who's typically taking on that responsibility before, like, someone like yourself is coming in? Is it usually again the founder that's leading that strategy, or is that weight being like, spread across the sales team already where they don't have, like this strategy mindset?
[00:36:55] Speaker A: Actually, that's a great question. Usually it's two different scenarios. It's one, either the founder is doing it all, or two, the founder hates sales so much they saw himself out. But then there's no one appointed to do that. And so someone like the sales managers try and do it, but then they're kind of in the fog of where they're managing these people. But also at the same time, expect to do strategy. But then they have to hop on call. They're spread way, way too thin sometimes.
[00:37:19] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely seems like a major issue. Carla, are you at. You're at that point now, aren't you?
[00:37:25] Speaker D: Huh? You know what? Actually, while I was listening to you guys, I had a reality realization, actually. I started to ask myself, do I actually like sales or do I just like money? Right?
[00:37:37] Speaker B: I think you like that you're good at sales. Carla, I think that you like that you're good at sales. I don't know if you like sales.
[00:37:43] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. You guys got me on a spin right here. Like, Kevin, I'm just trying to lay
[00:37:49] Speaker B: up a situation here for you.
[00:37:52] Speaker D: Yeah, I think done to my head, I would say I love marketing more than than sales a hundred percent.
[00:37:58] Speaker B: I do.
[00:37:59] Speaker D: I love sitting in a corner and writing copy. I love that way more than hopping on a sales call. And Alex knows this. I've had a lot of sales calls where I genuinely feel like I was just acting. I wasn't feeling good that way. You know, for the girls, like, maybe it's the time of the month or whatever. Right. You're not in a good mood. But then you gotta come on full energy, casual conversation. I'm trying to make them laugh, ask about their wife and their ugly kids and. Just kidding.
[00:38:27] Speaker B: I gotta mention something. About this. I know we've got kind of, like, stuff we want to go through, but Carla and I will, like, be in a little marriage spout, right? You know, working in the same house. I'm getting a nasty tone, right? And then I hear her get on a sales call. Oh, hey, how's it going? She's like, super nice. I'm like, what the hell? Where did that come from?
[00:38:47] Speaker D: That's hilarious. We'd be on this, like, fight. We'd be like, fuck you.
[00:38:52] Speaker A: You too.
[00:38:52] Speaker D: And then be like, I gotta be on sales call right now. I open my laptop and be like, hey, Kevin, how's it going? Yeah.
How's Orange County? Oh, yeah, I gotta visit this place. They have the best carrot cake.
[00:39:06] Speaker B: How do you do that?
[00:39:07] Speaker D: I think I'm just a narcissist.
[00:39:09] Speaker A: Bipolar. Oh, yeah.
[00:39:11] Speaker D: Okay.
Hey, I said bisexual, not bipolar.
[00:39:18] Speaker B: Buy something, she gets sexual.
[00:39:19] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:39:20] Speaker D: Not a lot of founders have the privilege of sitting in silence and really thinking about what they. What role they want to play in their business. But you gave some really good metrics there.
[00:39:31] Speaker A: I also think, too, like, I don't know, I fall into this too, right? Like, there's an inherent bias that we stay doing what we're good at sometimes, but that's not always what's needed for the business, you know, as a founder.
[00:39:43] Speaker B: And so sometimes you're just getting the hell out of the way, too.
[00:39:46] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:47] Speaker B: Just completely removing yourself and letting other people come in and flourish.
[00:39:51] Speaker D: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And it's ego, too. A lot of business owners really, really have that ego of, if I don't do this myself, then it's not going to get done. Right. But you're right, Alex. They just didn't give their other teammates maybe, like, a chance to. To flourish, like you said, to grow and ask them that question, like, what do you really like doing in the business in terms of. That. Of, you know, picking something you're good at, taking care of that leverage. What do you think, Kevin, is the highest leverage change that you've made for a client that took the least work? In your experience as a fractional head
[00:40:24] Speaker A: of sales, by far, having, like, Ali was definitely the easiest client for sure. And I've had a lot of different clients in the past. I've served, like, click funnel clients. Clients. Not my favorite. I've served, like, a lot of people over time. But having a brand honestly is night and day, because all those objections on, like, those trust objections are kind of gone. It's like, hey, dumbass, like, look on YouTube, like, it's a six point something million like subscriber channel.
[00:40:53] Speaker B: Right.
[00:40:54] Speaker D: It's like social proof. Yeah, yeah.
[00:40:56] Speaker A: There's just so much social proof and so much goodwill given by creators. So I think yes, the, that's like the major, major thing like when you have so much content. And even when I launched my like old like high ticket sales coaching offers, right. What I found was that people were coming onto my sales calls. They watch all my videos, they knew that I did Jiu jitsu, they knew that I was going through a breakup. They knew all these different things. And that's the power of content that I think people kind of forget about. Yes. Like those content assets for your sales process are so important, but so is your other like personal brand content to just let people know that hey, you are a real person. You do like degen things like I don't know, doing mollies or ketamine and stuff or injecting illegal peptides.
Yeah.
[00:41:45] Speaker B: How did we come back to this?
How did we come back to this conversation?
[00:41:49] Speaker A: I mean, are you surprised? I'm not.
[00:41:52] Speaker D: That's why Alex and I live in Mexico. We're just really here for the cocaine, honestly, nothing else.
[00:41:58] Speaker A: You just gotta go Colombia. What the fuck are you doing there? You gotta go Colombia, dude.
[00:42:02] Speaker D: True.
[00:42:04] Speaker B: Peru. Peru. Yeah.
[00:42:07] Speaker D: Yeah. I love that point, Kevin, because that is where you can really see the connection between followers or following and how that really affects the business. Right. The social proof and the confidence that you bring to that conversation during the actual sales, like the conversation, the actual sales call, that is where it all connects. It's easier to close someone who has confidence in the offer and in the person. Alex, wasn't there a time that your name got passed on to a lot of Ali Abdaal's Mastermind members as the CSM guy? Yeah. You've had, I think this was last year. You've had four clients back to back that are from Ali Abdullah.
[00:42:47] Speaker B: I have a client in there trying to. Trying to get some affiliate credits. So he's been passing me along. But you know, I. It's been really good people. I actually have a. We know a few people on that Mastermind. It's been really good. It just. It's been good. I don't want to say anything bad.
[00:43:03] Speaker D: Yeah, but same thing, right? They had the confidence through the referral, but I'm pretty sure those people came in through that world. I don't know, Kevin might have closed them actually.
Trickle down of that confidence, of that social proof even benefited you. Right.
[00:43:18] Speaker A: So sometimes I Think people forget that, like, if someone's going to spend thousands of dollars with you, right? Like, they want to know at least, like, have an idea of who this person is. Are they fucking shady? Are they going to do some, like, illegal shit and, like, do a rug pull on you? Things like that at least, like, I don't know. I think that's what most buyers would want to make sure of, I guess. Right. And so having additional content just really helps.
[00:43:44] Speaker D: That's true.
[00:43:45] Speaker B: You know, what's interesting is, like, there is definitely that you want to improve yourself. It's funny on Carla and my side too, we don't want to work with someone who's going to be shady because we're worried about retention. We have guarantees, right? So it's funny, like, there's that validation check on both sides, right? Yeah. We don't want to just take on any client just because they're willing to pay, too. So I think that there's, like, something that's, like, untalked about. There is, like, that validation helps the buyer decision, but there also needs to be validation to help the seller. Right? Just, like, to actually follow through.
[00:44:16] Speaker D: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:44:18] Speaker A: Well, if you can't help them, send them to tax evaders. IO. No, just kidding.
[00:44:22] Speaker D: I'm you, JV.
Something in your profile also, Kevin, like, stood out to me, and I'm really curious about this because you're building in public, and I, Even though my life is public in a way that I share a lot of my personal life and my business on public, building in public sounds a little like. And. And saying that out loud sounds a little scary to me. You know, it makes me nervous. So what's something that you've shared that initially you were nervous about, but then it actually turned out to be really good for your business?
[00:44:56] Speaker A: This video isn't out yet, but I have. I was really inspired by my friend Vanessa Lau and how she, like, for 1 million view YouTube video, she's talking about all the struggles that she had. And when I watched that video, I was like, wow, how brave of her to kind of, like, talk about that. And then so when my good friend and kind of like, I wouldn't call him mentor, I kind of hate that word. But like, my good friend and kind of like my older brother, he kind of came here to Vietnam. We did a podcast, and he's been in business for a long, long time.
He actually started his business a lot later in life, and I just came up to him with all my, like, kind of not, like, trauma dumping, but Kind of like, hey, man, these are all the, the fears I have about my business and stuff like that. These are the major things I'm going through. What is your advice? And just doing things like that. Now I do have, like, certain boundaries about what to share and stuff. Like, for one, I don't want to be like a relationship channel, so I don't share, like, my personal dating life and stuff like that for the most part. The second thing I don't really share is, like, things that I'm actually haven't processed yet. So like this episode that I have with my friend, it's probably not going to come out until like within a month or so after it's done processing, after I can do some voiceover over it and make sure it's like, all clean. I think building in public is very, very powerful, but there's also, like, it's part of vulnerability. People can hold that against you or people can judge you for that, which is. It's going to come with the territory. But I feel like the value that comes from building in public is just so, so powerful, man. And so I've been actually stockpiling a lot of vlogs that no one knows about, like this last year or so, which has been pretty insane.
[00:46:44] Speaker D: That's crazy.
Yeah. And you're right, like, a lot of the content creator, like coaches, they always talk about, like, be vulnerable, be vulnerable. Right. But then I also think that some people do it wrong in a way that they try to be vulnerable, like, take that strategy, but they're just turning out also to be a hot mess, like, in public.
Right. Like, I personally don't like it when, like, people, people give so many, like, details about, like, their breakups, like a lot of personal, private details, like showing their children a lot on social media. Like, I try to be. Yeah. You know, I don't like those practices personally. You know, there's nuances in between. But yeah, I think there's a difference between being like, elegantly vulnerable, I guess, and being a hot mess and airing out dirty laundry. Right. So, yeah, we just have to think about that. Clicks and views are not everything.
[00:47:40] Speaker A: Yeah. My 20s, I didn't really care, but now I'm in my 30s, going into my 40s soon. Like, it's something I try to be more mindful of because there's stuff on the Internet that just doesn't go away sometimes. Right. And yeah, like, dude, I still get hate comments to this day. Like, people making fun of my dead dad. Dude, it's pretty crazy. Yeah, it's really crazy, dude. Yeah, I get comments on that.
[00:48:04] Speaker D: Wow, that's crazy.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: I know. It's like, crazy. It's like. Yeah. I don't know, man. I mean, for most part, the Internet is a great place, but there are some, like, crazies out there. That's why I'm like, oh, do I want everything to be online?
Probably not. Should probably be kept behind closed doors, just like the Epstein files and stuff like that. So.
[00:48:23] Speaker D: Yeah, because you were on there, right?
[00:48:28] Speaker A: Allegedly. Okay.
[00:48:29] Speaker D: It's actually your first breakout video. It's in there in the files.
[00:48:34] Speaker A: That's my client list, by the way, that I've seen files. I hope you know that.
[00:48:38] Speaker D: Oh, gosh. As we head to a close in this episode, I want to ask something for me, for myself, and I think most of my clients as well. So I know that you got burnt out in your pharmacy life, your pharmacist life, and then now you're building in public a chill, seven, seven figure business.
So what are kind of your best learnings so far?
[00:49:00] Speaker A: I think one of the things that I'm just really kind of accepting. Right. Is like, you guys have been in client services for a long time, right? Yeah. One of the things I'm just realizing is like, dude, I don't know if this long term client game is for me. Like, I'm Talking about like 10 years more later down the line and stuff, you know, and one of the things that was always on my mind is like, like, people actually don't know. I'm really good at affiliate marketing. Like, I'm pretty good. And so I have a lot of friends who are. Are making tons of cash through affiliate marketing and stuff like that. You met one of them, by the way. But just seeing his growth, actually, because I met him when he was a baby YouTuber, right?
And just seeing how far he's come, I'm like, damn, if I started this, like, if I was really intentionally starting this, like, many, many years ago, then I'd be so much further ahead. And I'm like, ooh. I was always kind of running from that identity of, like, going all in on YouTube and stuff like that. There's a bit of confidence. But I think it's honestly, like, for so much of my life, like, I was a pharmacist, like, I always thought things would just go wrong. And for the first time in my life right now, like, I'm learning to, like, understand this concept of faith. Like, faith that things will actually work out. And that's really new for you. Me Because I didn't grow up in a religious household. I remember I had a Filipino girlfriend and she was like, you just gotta have some faith. I was like, what the is faith? I don't understand this, like, concept. Right. But now I'm starting to understand as I'm getting older. I think it's just having faith and belief that things will actually, like, go really, really well. Because all the signs have been there the whole time.
[00:50:34] Speaker B: Feels like you have to have faith that everything you want is on the other side of what you've been avoiding doing. Right?
[00:50:40] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:40] Speaker B: And I feel like that's usually generally, maybe this is the religious person me, where everything actually is. And like, we're all just like, delaying the inevitable to, like, go after whatever that is. Right. That's really cool. That actually is potentially affiliate marketing. But it could have been like your time to get there, like, to. You have to process. You have to get right mentally and get the skills. And then now you're gonna pursue it and you're gonna be more suited, right, for that.
[00:51:06] Speaker A: Well, it all ties together too, because I think, I mean, I all now to hear, like, I'm a score app partner. I'm like, partners with like, Daniel Priestley and all that and the Daniel Priestley team. And so that just happened pretty recently, which was pretty freaking crazy. And all these, like, serendipitous events have been happening as well too. So, yeah, I don't know, I feel like, really good about everything. It is a bit scary sometimes because I'm just like, ooh, should I like, I have a bunch of like, really, like, literally, I have like, text message from one of my friends that I met at a Mastermind many, many years ago. And he was like, hey, Kevin, do you still do closing? Can you help me? He's a pretty high profile guy. I'm like, I know what this takes. Do I want to go through this or am I delaying the number role? Right. And if I do it, I want to make sure that that's why I mostly do like head of sales these days. Because it's high leverage. It like, it like, leverages my experience, my strategic mind and all that. That too. So, yeah, it's like that battle, right, where I'm just like, dude, do I go back to my old life as a drug dealer?
[00:52:12] Speaker C: Right?
[00:52:12] Speaker A: Like, or do I turn this new leaf? Now I know why, like, criminals love staying criminals, man. It's an identity shift.
[00:52:20] Speaker D: That's why we're doing this podcast together. We're all criminals.
[00:52:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
Oh, you're. You're inducting me into your cartel. Thank you.
[00:52:29] Speaker B: Yeah, we can absolutely do affiliate deals for pharmacies. You know that, right? So you know that could be your next venture.
[00:52:35] Speaker A: Affiliate code for Peptides below in this basement.
[00:52:40] Speaker D: Exactly. Well, that was super cool, Kevin. Thank you so much for lending us your life, your experience as a drug dealer today and as a head of sales, we definitely learned a lot. How can people find you and all the good stuff that you're sharing to the world?
[00:52:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Easiest way to find me is on Instagram, but if you go to refugeehustle.com links that has all my links on there, you'll find some goodies. There's my free high ticket sales course. There is my high ticket sales assessment, which will pretty much find the bottleneck in your high ticket offer, all that sort of stuff. So you can check that out.
[00:53:19] Speaker D: Well, thank you so much for being here. Any final words for our audience at Rich and Remote, who are building amazing and thriving location independent business while also building a thriving and enjoyable life.
[00:53:31] Speaker A: Oh, dude, move to fucking Vietnam. That's like, out of all the decisions I ever made in my life, it was coming to Vietnam. Yeah, like, that was the number one thing, like, I ever did. Okay. When I came to Vietnam, I became so much happier. Like, my friends will vouch for me. I landed a baddie. Like, dude, and I'm, like, saving so much more money while investing more and living a better lifestyle. What more can you complain about? Holy.
[00:53:56] Speaker B: I'll echo that. Like, moving to Mexico is the best decision I've ever made. Just like, leaving and going to where you need to be is like, I don't know why people don't do it. Crazy.
[00:54:05] Speaker D: But, yeah, exact same thing happened to you, Alex. You landed a baddie and made more money.
[00:54:10] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:54:13] Speaker A: But what did expenses look like?
[00:54:16] Speaker D: Like, you.
I'm going to mute you right right now.
[00:54:21] Speaker B: She's not. She's not that kind of Filipino. She's such an expensive guy.
[00:54:26] Speaker D: I'm not a let's eat rice and soy sauce type of Filipino. And actually, there's a saying in Filipino which is bastalabing, and it translates to, I don't care if we eat bananas as long as we love each other. That's dumb.
[00:54:42] Speaker B: No, it doesn't abide by that at all.
[00:54:44] Speaker D: I would rather hate you and eat Michelin star, then love you and eat bananas.
[00:54:51] Speaker A: Is that fellatio in Nuendo? Do I have to, like, give fellatio to you in that case to make things work out?
[00:55:01] Speaker D: Well, thank you so much, Kevin, and we'll definitely give you a visit. Maybe this year is the year we finally, finally go to Vietnam.
[00:55:07] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:55:09] Speaker A: Maybe.
By the way, thank you so much for having me. This was really fun.
[00:55:13] Speaker D: Yeah, likewise.
[00:55:14] Speaker B: Thanks, Kevin.
[00:55:15] Speaker D: Bye.
Thanks for listening to Rich and Remote, where freedom isn't a dream, it's a decision.
This is Karla, this is Alex Booth, and this is our journey to our dream rich and remote life.
[00:55:32] Speaker B: If this episode inspired you, share with a friend who's ready to live life daily too. This is perfect for entrepreneurs who crave financial freedom, location freedom and freedom from the opinions of others.
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